//Training for Sparring
Training for Sparring2018-04-21T16:32:32+00:00

Xinyi-Dao Kung Fu Forums Xinyi-Dao Training Methods Training for Sparring

Viewing 6 posts - 16 through 21 (of 21 total)
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  • Steve Chan
    Participant
    Post count: 10

    I completely agree which boxing/kickboxing uses that in/out out and lateral footwork far more the Xinyi-Dao and I think this is due to the amount of space in a typical combat sports ring.

    I’m certain the reason boxer’s work at that distance is the same reason that Tae Kwon Do guys work at a more open distance – its all about the techniques they can use. Boxing ruled out elbows some time ago – so its all fists these days, and Tae Kwon Do guys have a slightly more open range because the rules allow them to use kicks a lot. The basic ring sizes for Muay Thai, Boxing, UFC and Sumo are all in the 15′-16′ diameter. A Tae Kwon Do ring 14′-18′ per side square. A Judo ring is 26′ in diameter. A Shuai Jiao ring seems to vary from 20’x20′ to a 29′ circle depending on the organization.
    I don’t see a connection between ring size and the range of techniques used. Especially since Judo, pretty much a pure grappling style uses the largest standard ring size, and Tae Kwon Do, about as aerial and kicking as you can get, starts at a 14′ ring.

    I think you get a broader range of techniques in a sport by allowing more techniques, and opening the rules so that there isn’t a bias/specialization towards some group. For example, the Judo and Shuai Jiao syllabus are full of techniques to work against the particular uniforms people wear to compete.
    I don’t see why we would need a new ruleset for Xinyi competition – why wouldn’t the existing MMA style rules work?

    Nancy Fiano
    Moderator
    Post count: 17

    https://youtu.be/MpjOjmjFGUs when doing the situps we are always told to inhale , inhale and to keep the dantian tight at all times, even when you get to the exhale. You let very little air out but you push down and exhale inside with a little sound
    This is a tai chi pushhand sit up, but look at the degree of turn in the body,and head and arm. In pichaun you would lay flat, inhale, then lift and turn either shoulder, inhale again while turning the other way,, then spiral yourself and hands to the center and start the movement up and over the top still inhaling and keeping core tight
    . Start the internal exhale just as you breach the top. Sorry I dont know how to add videos and photos from my phone to this reply.

    Geoff
    Participant
    Post count: 5

    Thanks so much Nancy, this is perfect!

    ManojB
    Participant
    Post count: 20

    Ok now seeing your reply to Stephen, so then I think you’re implying a caged smaller ring or similar. That said, competition might likely lead to mma clinch work being something that would evolve in that condition — which I don’t believe is incompatible with CMA

    Yeah, essentially sanda but in a smaller ring. I kind of like what Karate Combat uses it’s a low slanted wall. I was thinking of something local tournaments could use so a cage is a bit much. I agree on the ring outs as well. A leitai ring or other non-cage setup can still work as long as ring out don’t count for much. While clinch work would likely be used I think there is good opportunity to also work and evolve the trapping and all other of the in close movements of Xinyi and Bagua.

    – My thoughts lately have been along the lines that if we “weaponize” (someday I’ll write a blog post on this topic), CMA skills in a similarly progressive fashion as has been applied to MMA, we will come to similar conclusions, though we open the door to some different techniques/options and tactics.

    There’s no time like the present for that blog post 🙂

    ManojB
    Participant
    Post count: 20

    I’m certain the reason boxer’s work at that distance is the same reason that Tae Kwon Do guys work at a more open distance – its all about the techniques they can use. Boxing ruled out elbows some time ago – so its all fists these days, and Tae Kwon Do guys have a slightly more open range because the rules allow them to use kicks a lot. The basic ring sizes for Muay Thai, Boxing, UFC and Sumo are all in the 15′-16′ diameter. A Tae Kwon Do ring 14′-18′ per side square. A Judo ring is 26′ in diameter. A Shuai Jiao ring seems to vary from 20’x20′ to a 29′ circle depending on the organization.
    I don’t see a connection between ring size and the range of techniques used. Especially since Judo, pretty much a pure grappling style uses the largest standard ring size, and Tae Kwon Do, about as aerial and kicking as you can get, starts at a 14′ ring.

    I don’t think the ring size have an affect on the range of techniques used, but it does influence how the match played. Smaller rings allows for less movement and can make long range techniques trickier to use. For example, if you were fighting in a stairwell you could use kicks but it’d be a bit riskier. In a smaller ring the stick and move tactic requires more work as there is less space forcing you to constantly move.

    I think you get a broader range of techniques in a sport by allowing more techniques, and opening the rules so that there isn’t a bias/specialization towards some group. For example, the Judo and Shuai Jiao syllabus are full of techniques to work against the particular uniforms people wear to compete.
    I don’t see why we would need a new ruleset for Xinyi competition – why wouldn’t the existing MMA style rules work?

    For open competition MMA rules are the best for the reason you stated. MMA is an open platform for any style, but my intent is different. My original thought was essentially the example you gave for Judo and Shuai Jiao. They have a syllabus and rules for their own styles. So, what would be a good ruleset/format for Xinyi in a competitive format? Tae Kwon Do rules are setup to reinforce the hallmarks of TKD, Judo rules to reinforce those of Judo and likewise BJJ, Shuai Jiao, Kyokushin Karate, etc… These all exist to promote their respective arts and develop their individual skills and aspects. I was thinking it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have the same. Here’s what I came up with:
    -Small Ring
    -Holding/Clinching allowed
    -Striking (any part or to reduce injury risk no elbows and knees)
    -sweeps/trips/throws/takedowns
    -touching any part other than feet to the floor is considered knockdown in some respect (no wrestling type takedowns or sacrifice throws)
    -I kind of like ring outs as many applications of Xinyi involve tossing the person away and I think it be would be good to get credit for that. But as Forrest pointed out you could end up with Sumo tactics, though with sweeps and other techniques allowed sumo tactics would have its own risks. Oh, one point that Forrest made was that ring outs aren’t practical for self-defense, however as I was writing this I thought of a few situations where it is does make sense. Back to my stairwell example, pushing someone down the stairs is very effective another one could be tossing someone into wall or into the street, etc. It may seem useless for sportive combat but it still works an important principle of being able to prevent your opponent from moving you around. Also, Master Li stresses always pressing forward so it helps reinforce that idea too. I think the strikes and sweeps should discourage sumo shoving type tactics.

    I think at the very least this would be a good way to train free-fighting. We practice outside here in Seattle so doing takedowns and such is hard. Let me know if any of guys try this out or maybe you already spar like this? I did 7 Star Mantis back when I was in college and I think it and Wing Chun would take to this format well. None of the TCMA styles I’m familiar with emphasize the distance fighting however I’ve noticed in sparring people to tend to resort to it. So I was trying to think of ways to encourage the close range stuff instead.

    Forrest Chang
    Participant
    Post count: 9

    Just now got a chance to watch the videos that Stephen posted. On the first one, it’s a bit overly complex, but progressions like that are typical from the WTBA — probably good for developing basic technique work and having a combo, but it’s basically a 2 man form wrt aliveness – more on this later.

    For the 2nd one, pads and belly pad are useful – the 2 man work here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEXF3x_orsU is really good, where Yodkhunpon is refining Sylvie’s technique through out in various low intensity scenarios – i.e. finding the opening for an elbow while they are exchanging knees from the clinch, etc. With regards to entries (and that’s really the a key part, no one is just going to stand there and let you do a technique you’ve honed on pads) there’s a lot of subtlety and details – like here https://youtu.be/BEXF3x_orsU?t=6m11s

    I’d approach it something like the above then with limited/low intensity sparring for each of the scenarios to get a handle of doing it on a non compliant opponent

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